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Remove SoftRaid feature from XigmaNAS builds

Software RAID information and help
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ChriZathens
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Re: Remove SoftRaid feature from XigmaNAS builds

#31

Post by ChriZathens » 22 Oct 2018 09:51

nasrocks wrote:
22 Oct 2018 03:50
Please do not remove it. ECC memory is expensive and not available for many motherboards.
Why does this pose a problem with ZFS?
And how do you think it is any different than SoftRaid?
My Nas
  1. Case: Fractal Design Define R2
  2. M/B: Supermicro x9scl-f
  3. CPU: Intel Celeron G1620
  4. RAM: 16GB DDR3 ECC (2 x Kingston KVR1333D3E9S/8G)
  5. PSU: Chieftec 850w 80+ modular
  6. Storage: 8x2TB HDDs in a RaidZ2 array ~ 10.1 TB usable disk space
  7. O/S: XigmaNAS 11.2.0.4.6625 -amd64 embedded
  8. Extra H/W: Dell Perc H310 SAS controller, crosflashed to LSI 9211-8i IT mode, 8GB Innodisk D150SV SATADOM for O/S

Backup Nas: HP N40L (4x1TB HP branded Seagate disks in RaidZ configuration - 8GB ECC RAM)

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Re: Remove SoftRaid feature from XigmaNAS builds

#32

Post by zoon01 » 22 Oct 2018 14:53

To end this story:

One of the ZFS developers (Matthew Athrens) has said that ZFS without ECC is no worse than any other file system without ECC!
There is no requirement to use ZFS only with ECC ram!

Only if you love your data, use ECC RAM. Additionally, use a filesystem that checksums your data, such as ZFS.

https://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic ... #p26303271


We do recommend the use of ECC RAM in your server, but never made that a Requirement!
System specs: XigmaNAS 11.2.0.4 -embedded on Samsung 860 EVO 256GB and Supermicro X10SL7-F w / Bios v3.2, IPMI v.03.84 / CPU E3-1241 v3 @ 3.50GHz - 32GB Crucial DDR3L 1600mhz ECC 1.35v , LSI 2308 on PH20.00.07.00 IT mode, Storage: 5x Western Digital Red (WD30EFRX) raidz

Development system is same system in virtualbox.

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Re: Remove SoftRaid feature from XigmaNAS builds

#33

Post by apollo567 » 22 Oct 2018 20:29

Hello Zoon,
very helpful to clarify this ECC topic.
Would it be a good idea to automatically activate the mentioned flag in the artikel by default : ZFS_DEBUG_MODIFY ? At least with non-ECC ram in case this can be easily detected ?
Kind regards
apollo
my NAS and its development until today: viewtopic.php?f=63&t=39&sid=039fed830cf ... 4d0abe4a04

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Re: Remove SoftRaid feature from XigmaNAS builds- Why?

#34

Post by Pu02 » 24 Oct 2018 06:10

zoon01 wrote:
19 Oct 2018 00:33
Update: On rev 6131 The option to create a softraid has been removed, existing softraid configurations are not impacted.
Softraid will be marked as deprecated in future 12.x series.
Zoon, earlier you post saying 'There is nothing set yet! This discussion is here to see how you, "the end user" thinks on a change like this'.

Then update saying you are going ahead in removing softraid.

I'm sure there are other discussions I've missed, but am surprised this is the way chosen. SoftRAID is a very commonly used feature, though of course ZFS is preferable for so many reasons. However with old hardware, or anything with <4GB RAM, SoftRAID is still King. Also:

1. For anyone who needs to work with SoftRAID arrays (recovering data/migrating systems, arrays), having create array removed from the the UI is a pain.

2. How many implementations are out there using SoftRAID? Is there any reliable knowledge on this? If adding one is no longer supported in the UI, I assume you can still create at the CLI- is this correct? It still puts anyone with an old config/setup through additional stress when working on a new system. Creating an array is helpful if you need to recover data or the re-implement an existing configuration. ie Imagine rebuilding a host with particular hardware, or having to run a restore to which you then want to bring up existing arrays. I guess restoring files from an old version won't work with a new release, so you may end up having additional pain re-installing an old version to get data online, and then set about moving to ZFS to get the system up to a current version. Granted all this is possible, but it forces users into a particular path during recovery which could complicate things for them somewhat.

3. Even if Nas4free is the only NAS to support SoftRAID, it is a feature others don't have- and one which would influence adoption if people have <8GB RAM.

4. Embedded hardware. There are many limitations, and is a complex web. Is embedded not important? Why even think about breaking it?

What are the reasons for removing it? It is not being pulled from any BSD or Linux- and I know is used by many in the industry. What trouble does it cause? SoftRAID is not a forward facing service and needs no security updates. SoftRAID has a very mature feature set, so does not change very much and shouldn't push changes down very often, and seldom any that can cause any work.

Don't get me wrong, I understand that unused cruft has to be trimmed from the system. But I can't see that a pillar of storage especially a RAID implementation that has been this widely used- literally, for decades, is a candidate for cruft.

Is SoftRAID presenting an overhead for testing, or development? It's not like anything has been removed from the Kernel sources or needs maintenance AFAIC see. Why are you wanting to remove a core storage technology?
LGA1150 Xeon E3-1220Lv3 || 32GB Unbuffered DDR3L-1600 || System on USB3 || Intel C224 via software RAID and 4 disk backplane
HP ML10v2 Xeon E3-1220Lv3 || 32GB Unbuffered DDR3L-1600 || System on SAnDisk Extreme || HP controller w software RAID and 3+1 disk backplane

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Re: Remove SoftRaid feature from XigmaNAS builds

#35

Post by Vasiliy » 24 Oct 2018 15:27

Totally agree with you. I am not an IT specialist, but I follow this project from the very beginning. If my memory serves me well, it started from FreeNas 0.7 years ago, while FreeNAS 0.8 (more hardware demanding)turned more to enterprise hardware (IXSystems). Beauty of Nas4Free is (as I see it) in it`s simplicity, as being robust at the same time, covering various types of hardware , from old machines to newest ones. As a part of that common users always had a CHOICE between ZFS, UFS (softRAID), ... Unlike the FreeNAS which continued their story exclusively to ZFS. Through many posts, right here at this forum, many of you emphasized use of ECC RAM with ZFS. From ..."strongly advised..." to "... never,ever use ZFS without ECC RAM, at least if you care about your data..." Now it`s "...not mandatory..." What`s changed now with your approach? This push to more serious hardware will make no difference between XigmaNAS and FreeNAS. Instead you should focus developing various plugins (add-ons) to widening user experience and usability. If anything I would like to have a CHOICE if I want to use UFS , ZFS, RAID. Imposing solutions will only discourage people from this wonderful project. Just like me.
P.S. Sorry if my English is not good enough.

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Re: Remove SoftRaid feature from XigmaNAS builds- Why?

#36

Post by zoon01 » 24 Oct 2018 22:48

Pu02 wrote:
24 Oct 2018 06:10
zoon01 wrote:
19 Oct 2018 00:33
Update: On rev 6131 The option to create a softraid has been removed, existing softraid configurations are not impacted.
Softraid will be marked as deprecated in future 12.x series.
Zoon, earlier you post saying 'There is nothing set yet! This discussion is here to see how you, "the end user" thinks on a change like this'.

Then update saying you are going ahead in removing softraid.

I'm sure there are other discussions I've missed, but am surprised this is the way chosen. SoftRAID is a very commonly used feature, though of course ZFS is preferable for so many reasons. However with old hardware, or anything with <4GB RAM, SoftRAID is still King. Also:

1. For anyone who needs to work with SoftRAID arrays (recovering data/migrating systems, arrays), having create array removed from the the UI is a pain.

2. How many implementations are out there using SoftRAID? Is there any reliable knowledge on this? If adding one is no longer supported in the UI, I assume you can still create at the CLI- is this correct? It still puts anyone with an old config/setup through additional stress when working on a new system. Creating an array is helpful if you need to recover data or the re-implement an existing configuration. ie Imagine rebuilding a host with particular hardware, or having to run a restore to which you then want to bring up existing arrays. I guess restoring files from an old version won't work with a new release, so you may end up having additional pain re-installing an old version to get data online, and then set about moving to ZFS to get the system up to a current version. Granted all this is possible, but it forces users into a particular path during recovery which could complicate things for them somewhat.

3. Even if Nas4free is the only NAS to support SoftRAID, it is a feature others don't have- and one which would influence adoption if people have <8GB RAM.

4. Embedded hardware. There are many limitations, and is a complex web. Is embedded not important? Why even think about breaking it?

What are the reasons for removing it? It is not being pulled from any BSD or Linux- and I know is used by many in the industry. What trouble does it cause? SoftRAID is not a forward facing service and needs no security updates. SoftRAID has a very mature feature set, so does not change very much and shouldn't push changes down very often, and seldom any that can cause any work.

Don't get me wrong, I understand that unused cruft has to be trimmed from the system. But I can't see that a pillar of storage especially a RAID implementation that has been this widely used- literally, for decades, is a candidate for cruft.

Is SoftRAID presenting an overhead for testing, or development? It's not like anything has been removed from the Kernel sources or needs maintenance AFAIC see. Why are you wanting to remove a core storage technology?
1. With drives that gets bigger and bigger its time to move on to zfs

2. Hard to tell who are out there using SoftRAID, Create from cli is still possible on 11.x

3. Are we still talking about very old systems here? Modern systems 5 years or lesser supports easy more than 8GB RAM, even my 8 years old system supports more RAM.

4. Some info on GEOM RAID5 module (http://www.wgboome.org/geom_raid5-html & (http://lev.serebryakov.spb.ru/download/graid5).
Copyright © 2006-2010 Originally written by Arne Woerner (graid5@wgboome.org).
Copyright © 2010-2014 Now maintained by Lev Serebryakov (lev@FreeBSD.org).

The GEOM RAID5 module was specially written for us back in the day when we released freenas 0.4 or 0.5 series, i cant remember this to be precisely
So far i'm not sure how this stays compatible with newer FreeBSD series as upcoming 12.x series is on the corner too.
There is no guarantee it stays working as intended, Lev Serebryakov has dropped the ball too.

A week before the release of 6154 we internal have thought about this case, we have removed now the gui option to avoid new users perform a softraid from scratch.

We never can please everyone at any times!
Sorry

Regards,
Michael
System specs: XigmaNAS 11.2.0.4 -embedded on Samsung 860 EVO 256GB and Supermicro X10SL7-F w / Bios v3.2, IPMI v.03.84 / CPU E3-1241 v3 @ 3.50GHz - 32GB Crucial DDR3L 1600mhz ECC 1.35v , LSI 2308 on PH20.00.07.00 IT mode, Storage: 5x Western Digital Red (WD30EFRX) raidz

Development system is same system in virtualbox.

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Re: Remove SoftRaid feature from XigmaNAS builds

#37

Post by Pu02 » 25 Oct 2018 01:33

Hi Michael, thank you for your reply.

Just because HDDs are huge, doesn't mean partitions need to be- on a NAS its common to divide mount points across multiple partitions, so keeping softraids <500GB makes rebuild quick and dependable. Large drives are a boon even for softraid, as now we have space to fit multiple stripes for each array, which is why some build arrays in TB sizes and maintain them, though rebuilds take time and don't do this personally.

Consider that hardware RAID devices rebuild data in the same way, and work with today's larger drives. They are not out of production; and still available at your local store! But also, that software RAID is more reliable than hardware RAID, so some use it in preference because unlike hardware raid controller, software raid uses no power, doesn't require a particular model of hardware raid controller to work, tools are easier to use, and makes the disks portable between systems and OSs.

Yes, softraid is old code and we should not expect it to be updated. From what I know of RAID code and devices, it is ***written by wizards and is the kind of code that is relatively bug-free***. Knowing this, I was actually quite shocked to read this post!

Anyway, to confirm I looked at your graid and geom_raid5 links, these seem the same vintage as is currently implemented in FreeBSD 11.2. (Last graid commit to current FreedBSD 11.2 was 220208 from Thu Mar 31 15:52:12 2011 UTC (7 years, 6 months ago) by mav, and the last geom_raid5 commit was 188101 (9 years ago) by lulv. This seems same or similar to your links. Or is there something XigmaNAS specific in the code in XigmNAS? Is it not inherited from FreeBSD source?

The problem taking softraid out of XigmNAS is that there are more old systems around now than there used to be: People (some I imagine are XigmaNAS target market) are implementing on all that cheap, old server gear being thrown out, as so many move move to public cloud.

"A week before the release of 6154 we internal have thought about this case" So what was the actual reason you decided to sunset/begin deprecating code that will remain supported in FreeBSD for years yet?

Why take away our use of this gear? If you make people throw out their systems, they will stop updating, or move to an alternative NAS, or cloud. Few update without reason, especially if they built a FreeNAS or a XigmaNAS, as it would have taken effort and time building/maintaining a good solution. Maybe like me they just clean out the dust or add a new drive or three every now and then. No point upgrading, unless you can reduce power consumption or get something better (not many new features arrive that help NAS functions, eg disk encryption, but is still a can of worms on clone and desktop gear). As long as the old stuff is easy and cheap to maintain, and in use, why would the project stop supporting it?

And what about embedded solutions? Implementing a simple mirrored array across two disks requires softraid- doesn't use memory like ZFS, and can be done very reliably. Even with 8TB disks (using multiple small arrays).

I still can't find the rationale behind doing this- softraid is a foundational feature of an OS, let alone a NAS. Would be better to know if people are using a feature, let alone a core one, before you choose to remove it. I think you should reverse this.
LGA1150 Xeon E3-1220Lv3 || 32GB Unbuffered DDR3L-1600 || System on USB3 || Intel C224 via software RAID and 4 disk backplane
HP ML10v2 Xeon E3-1220Lv3 || 32GB Unbuffered DDR3L-1600 || System on SAnDisk Extreme || HP controller w software RAID and 3+1 disk backplane

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Re: Remove SoftRaid feature from XigmaNAS builds

#38

Post by raulfg3 » 25 Oct 2018 04:59

I see your system spec.
LGA1150 Xeon E3-1220Lv3 || 32GB Unbuffered DDR3L-1600 || System on USB3 || Intel C224 via software RAID and 4 disk backplane
HP ML10v2 Xeon E3-1220Lv3 || 32GB Unbuffered DDR3L-1600 || System on SAnDisk Extreme || HP controller w software RAID and 3+1 disk backplane
and think that your system runs very well on ZFS, please do extensive speed test on your actual system, then repeat the test when migrate to ZFS, and please post here to compare.

You probably where happy noticed that ZFS is designed for your system.


PD: Check the rebulit too (SoftRAID Vs ZFS)
12.0.0.4 (revision 6766)+OBI on SUPERMICRO X8SIL-F 8GB of ECC RAM, 12x3TB disk in 3 vdev in RaidZ1 = 32TB Raw size only 22TB usable

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Re: Remove SoftRaid feature from XigmaNAS builds

#39

Post by Pu02 » 25 Oct 2018 08:52

Thanks Raulfg3- yes I'm happy to do this. I'll post when I have something to share

Of course ZFS is much faster than comparable disk setups in softraid, but please understand this is no reason to remove softraid from the build.

Many others will have all kinds of use cases, but mine is this: I always want to be able to spin up a softraid partition, also XFS and other filesystems with old RAID configurations. I need to access data on old arrays that I store offline, and this is ideal when I can mount these arrrays locally to my main storage partitions. Archiving the data can then be done disk to disk (imagine filesystem copies of large svn repos- this takes >days over the wire). Right now I just load them into XigmaNAS drive trays, mount them and begin working with the data at full bus speed.

If softraid gets deprecated, I'll need to use a different Linux/BSD system to do it, and begin pulling online disks out of the NAS instead, which will make it a painful and risky exercise.

Oh and I forgot to say, right now I just use UFS because I only have 4GB RAM. So I have no stripes, at this point, I only use backups to protect the data
LGA1150 Xeon E3-1220Lv3 || 32GB Unbuffered DDR3L-1600 || System on USB3 || Intel C224 via software RAID and 4 disk backplane
HP ML10v2 Xeon E3-1220Lv3 || 32GB Unbuffered DDR3L-1600 || System on SAnDisk Extreme || HP controller w software RAID and 3+1 disk backplane

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Re: Remove SoftRaid feature from XigmaNAS builds

#40

Post by JoseMR » 30 Oct 2018 00:37

Pretty sure I've posted this before as well as for " Matthew Ahrens" words of authority, but to refresh some minds:

Will ZFS and non-ECC RAM kill your data?

This whole FUD about "DON'T USE ZFS WITHOUT ECC RAM" paranoia here comes from users who has been reading FN and few other forums, no wonder if few of them has lost they pools on such bloated/unstable OS.

Remember that ZFS is highly tunable and you can always enable/disable/limit features if you are kind of paranoid, also it does not matter what filesystem you are using, buggy and/or malfunctioning hardware will kill your data regardless of ECC/non-ECC/filesystem.

However having ECC RAM is a nice safety/extra addition and a must have for the enterprise, or for anyone who takes their data storage seriously.

Regards
System: FreeBSD 12 RootOnZFS, MB: Supermicro X8SI6-F, Xeon X3450, 16GB DDR3 ECC RDIMMs.
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Re: Remove SoftRaid feature from XigmaNAS builds

#41

Post by bjs » 08 Mar 2019 14:16

Just to be clear, is this all Software RAID, including gmirror???
XigmaNAS 11.2.0.4 - Omnius RootOnZFS/MBR - HP M700 120GB SSDs
x64-full on Intel Core2 Quad CPU Q9300 @ 2.50GHz - 8GB RAM
Intel DG33FB Motherboard - LSI 9211-8i with 8TB available

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Re: Remove SoftRaid feature from XigmaNAS builds

#42

Post by ms49434 » 08 Mar 2019 15:23

bjs wrote:
08 Mar 2019 14:16
Just to be clear, is this all Software RAID, including gmirror???
OptionCreate via WebGUICreate via CLIImport & Maintain
GEOM JBODyesyesyes
GEOM RAID-0yesyesyes
GEOM RAID-1yesyesyes
GEOM RAID-5noyesyes
GVINUM RAID-0noyesyes
GVINUM RAID-1noyesyes
GVINUM RAID-5noyesyes
1) XigmaNAS 12.0.0.4 amd64-embedded on a Dell T20 running in a VM on ESXi 6.7U2, 22GB out of 32GB ECC RAM, LSI 9300-8i IT mode in passthrough mode. Pool 1: 2x HGST 10TB, mirrored, SLOG: Samsung 850 Pro, L2ARC: Samsung 850 Pro, Pool 2: 1x Samsung 860 EVO 1TB , services: Samba AD, CIFS/SMB, ftp, ctld, rsync, syncthing, zfs snapshots.
2) XigmaNAS 12.0.0.4 amd64-embedded on a Dell T20 running in a VM on ESXi 6.7U2, 8GB out of 32GB ECC RAM, IBM M1215 crossflashed, IT mode, passthrough mode, 2x HGST 10TB , services: rsync.

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Re: Remove SoftRaid feature from XigmaNAS builds

#43

Post by bjs » 08 Mar 2019 15:40

@ms49454

Thank you for your quick and very clear response!!!
XigmaNAS 11.2.0.4 - Omnius RootOnZFS/MBR - HP M700 120GB SSDs
x64-full on Intel Core2 Quad CPU Q9300 @ 2.50GHz - 8GB RAM
Intel DG33FB Motherboard - LSI 9211-8i with 8TB available

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Re: Remove SoftRaid feature from XigmaNAS builds

#44

Post by mrjacobrussell » 09 Oct 2019 03:45

How much ram do you really need for ZFS I want to have two raidz drives 3x4tb and 3x2tb. I was going to use software raid until I went searching for why the raid5 option was missing today.
11.2.0.4 - Omnius (revision 6766)
x64-embedded on Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-2600 CPU @ 3.40GHz 8gb ram

-For SALE x64-embedded on Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU E8400 @ 3.00GHz
-For SALE - PM ME - Rackable server w/ - Motherboard ARIMA NM46X - Ram 24GB -2x- 2.4 GHz Opteron 8216 HE boot from SSD

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Re: Remove SoftRaid feature from XigmaNAS builds

#45

Post by apollo567 » 09 Oct 2019 06:29

8 GB will Work, would go for 16 GB ECC-Ram
my NAS and its development until today: viewtopic.php?f=63&t=39&sid=039fed830cf ... 4d0abe4a04

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