New setup, help me decide.

[Sergio]

First of all I want to hello to all the members of this community and thanks for been there sharing that splendid knowledge.

I decided to build a NAS4Free rig for my home. I must say that while this machine is for domestic use, I'm a programmer and sometimes I like to do experiments on spare times. So I will be storing the media collection for my XBMC system (perhaps I would also give Plex a try), my project sources, my wifes (advocate) stuff, and if It's possible, the security repository and host my web pages.

The hardware I currently have for it are my developing computer parts, that I'm putting aside for not-so-new one's. But fortunately I'm not on the gaming.

The mobo is a ASUS M2N-SLI Deluxe + AMD Athlon 64 x2 4200+ It's a dammed octopus that has one SATA controller for 6 ports and a second one for two more ports. Also has IDE controller. It also has double communications controller 1Gbx2 lan ports and more FW/USB ports than anything I've ever seen.
I currently have two 1TB empty discs and one 1.5TB full to the top. And various other little disks in many flavors (2.5", 3.5", SATA, IDE)
Some random stuff I have lying around and BB UPS I would change the bats.

My idea was to get three more 1TB discs and do a (6) RAIDz2 on the primary controller. And then swapping by steps to grow in capacity. I left the two secondary SATA ports aside bc I read somewhere that it's not good to make a vdev through controllers. (And that was so sad)
Also I was concerned about the recommended raid sizes, that leaves me very limited.
Booting from an USB key, but now I'm reading about inconveniences for adding software later... (I admit that I don't understand the installation options)
Now I'm looking at amazon for IDE flash cards to use the IDE controller but I don't know if still I would have to setup a 2ndary storage for... user files? addons? configs? or all will run there.

Another option for the 2nd SATA controller is a small mirror for spare things.

What I want you guys it's give me ideas on how to setup this thing. What would you do with this equipment with the mind on improving the system with addons and more functionality, if possible (still don't get the thing)

Thank you in advance for all your suggestions.

[b0ssman]

the first thing you should do is read this post about ecc.
http://forums.freenas.org/index.php?thr ... zfs.15449/

second.
you can still use the embedded install on the usb drive and use freebsd jails to install additional software.

question how are you gonna move the 1.5 tb of data and then create the 6 disc raidz2?

[alexplatform]

It may be worthwhile to step back and answer a few questions for yourself. Monolithic PC hardware such as you describe eats a substantial amount of electricity and produces a non trivial amount of heat; while when Freenas/N4F were born there was really no alternative to using it, there are a lot of solutions available today with excellent performance that are much more power efficient and produce a fraction of thermal output. with the summer right around the corner, this might be a consideration

So, back to the original point:

1. You said you want to store data (media) and user data. How much data are you describing, and how much of it has do be always online-randomly accessible? (in other words, some data may be better served by on demand means such as an external drive, both in terms of power use and minimizing wear and tear on the storage medium, and possibly for increased security.)
2. I understand you want to host web pages. Needless to say that if you intend an internet facing application, DONT SHARE THE WEBSERVING HARDWARE WITH YOUR STORAGE. In case of a breach, there's nothing useful to be gained by exposing all your data as well.
3. I appreciate that there is a desire to use up your existing resources. Bear in mind that drives are mechanical devices, and their likelihood to fail increases with age and power-on hours. If you care about your data resist this urge. Use only good drives and if you will use more then one then they really should be of identical capacity with similar power on statistics for use in a parity raidset. Forget using IDE. just dont. (there's nothing inherently wrong with IDE but whatever drives you can find dont meet the criteria above.)
4. If you can achieve your online storage needs with a single disk, consider an embedded NAS solution like a goflex home NAS. It will provide you with virtually all the functionality required for your described use, allowing you to have a main storage solution offline except when needed, and for backing up the goflex. This will save a lot of power and allow you to use an online/offline solution which is far more secure as well. just remember that disks hate to be spun up and down so let them run for a while when you bring them up.

I went to an online/offline approach last year. It wasnt nearly as difficult as I thought, and my N4F box is powered on once a week for synchronization. Its even theoretically possible to keep the N4F box accessible via WOL but I prefer the low tech way (power switch.)

[Sergio]

@b0ssman: Thanks for your response. Yes, I'll put ECC sticks in this machine. While I don't agree with all of the ECC benefits, I realize that the difference in costs doesn't pay any risks specially when the staff are saying that is a must.

I'm reading that this Jails thing basically mirrors the freeBSD system in another disk so you use it there, I'm right? It's very interesting, so it may be possible to use a 1ry flash on the IDE port for an easy update and then a small SSD on a USB for the jails. Seems to you a good idea?
Then I could use a 80GB latop drive+SATA to USB adaptor for now and replace with SSD when incomes allow for it.

For the 1.5TB movement I suppose I'll... get some disks from spare pcs at work. There are tons of them.

@Alex: You really surprised me. I never expect to receive recommendations against making the NAS4FREE machine. I get your point, but If I understand you well, your advise is for using removable/portable media? Sorry, my English is somewhat limited and I could have misunderstood.
The fact is that nowadays I use the system you describe for my personal data and wifes. For the media, well it's all put on the 1.5TB drive, with no redundancy inside the XBMC box (low power mini-itx). It's getting really hot inside that box so I let the wires out and leave the HD outside.

You will agree that this perspective is so ridiculous, specially for a software architect (or whatever I'm named todays ). But you must understand that I'm a poor man.

I really agree on the low performance of the hardware I have. But that's what it is. I thought to under-clock it and power off all the unused things on the board. That's a pretty thing of that bios it has. Lets you control anything.

For the hosting, I really assure you that they won't be any intrusion in my systems. Well, it would be possible if someone breaks thru my basement, but really I doubt it. I don't have internet at home
You may imagine me as a very busy guy, so concerned with it's work, so many years on the computing... that when ends it's work day, effectively disappears. I get my car and drive to the country and get into my house in the middle of the forest where even phone doesn't arrives. Then I work on old engines, masonry... the orchard (vegetable one)

But from time to time I get a flash and start a new program (and develop it at middays) just like the "house affers" controller, that commands heating or irrigation... that's a web-based multi-pod app that would be nice to put the web manager on the NAS. If not, that's another machine online.

Uh! The IDE thing was only for booting the embedded SO. with something like (but a real one): eBay
The SATAs would be storage dedicated.

[b0ssman]

@b0ssman: Thanks for your response. Yes, I'll put ECC sticks in this machine. While I don't agree with all of the ECC benefits, I realize that the difference in costs doesn't pay any risks specially when the staff are saying that is a must.

you cant as your motherboard does not support ecc.

[00Roush]

From what I recall most all Asus AMD boards for socket 939/AM2/AM3 supported ECC. Looks like this one does too... http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/M2NSLI ... fications/

00Roush

[alexplatform]

but If I understand you well, your advise is for using removable/portable media?

Not exactly. I'm suggesting its a possible approach. I'm not suggesting against N4F, I'm simply suggesting that its not the best solution for every case.

Sorry, my English is somewhat limited and I could have misunderstood.

No apologies necessary. Ask in your language, I may speak it (or partly, or aided with google translate) Sergio es un nombre latino, espanol o italiano? In any case, I think I understand your English just fine

The fact is that nowadays I use the system you describe for my personal data and wifes

So your intention is to make it into a dedicated server? Do you no longer require it as a workstation?

For the media, well it's all put on the 1.5TB drive, with no redundancy inside the XBMC box (low power mini-itx). It's getting really hot inside that box so I let the wires out and leave the HD outside.

Yes, this would be best served to take the data drive and serve it from a remote server device (your XBMC box would run cooler and quieter, both desirable traits.) You can easily take the 1.5TB drive and plug it into your existing desktop workstation while architecting the eventual solution.

that when ends it's work day, effectively disappears. I get my car and drive to the country and get into my house in the middle of the forest where even phone doesn't arrives. Then I work on old engines, masonry... the orchard (vegetable one)

I envy you my friend. I'm attached to the internet 24/7... If you have no security concerns you may certainly serve HTML from the same server. you can certainly use N4F is a basis for such a system, although I think you may be getting to a point where a proper server distro would be more appropriate.

[Sergio]

Well, I'm a little deceived. I picked a 4GB ECC server stick at work and tried on this MB, but it didn't work. It's true that the manufacturer specifies the maximum ram at 8GB, but as they had corrected from 4GB at the time, I thought it would be possible, as some forums were telling. That Ram was HP ECC buffered.
I guess 16GB are a requirement, specially if I already plan to add some functionality. Are they??

If I was to drop that MB, what other you recommend that has +6 integrated SATA and 16gb ram supported?

I admit that I'm evaluating other options, like OMV. But it looks so scary. (No support, community, no one seems to be behind)

PD: Thanks Alex for your understanding. Yes, I'm spanish from Spain. Sergio is russian

[crowi]

The Asrock C2550D4I has 12 SATA ports and supports 64GB ECC
It runs out of the box with N4F

[b0ssman]

Ok i was wrong about the ecc support. But buffered ecc are definably not supported. Only in buffered. And for home use you can make it run on 4gb.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sergio]

@crowi: thats a nice MB. Unfortunately seems to like a nice wallet. One with two lan ports and 8 sata2 ports would be enough. Don't plan racing with it.
@b0ssman: It seems so. Unfortunately I updated the bios this afternoon and now its trashed. It's like when you've got bad memory, even bios is not functional. It's incredible that a manufacturer could leave online a defective update for 4 years.
So seems the time for a new mobo.

Do you think 4gb would be enough for zfs+plex?

[b0ssman]

if you are buying a new motherboard you should invest in at least 8gb.
for a motherboard check out the supermicro X10SLL-F
http://www.supermicro.com.tw/products/m ... 0SLL-F.cfm.
if you dont need encryption. a celeron/pentium will do.
encryption i3.
xeon if you want to to some more computation. ie it would be helpfull for multible plex streams.

the additionnal sata ports can come from a controller like an ibm m1015 or other.

[b0ssman]

but before that read

http://support.asus.com/Troubleshooting ... s=&no=1722

[Sergio]

@b0ssman: Thanks. That board seems to do more with me. I never preferred miniITX over uATX, but I wonder what a difference in consumption may expect over a mITX or my M2N board.

but before that read

http://support.asus.com/Troubleshooting ... s=&no=1722

It's not that the board does not post. It's a complete buggy operation. I can enter bios, but it shows "strange chars" around, and delays only seconds to halt. If I try to boot to N4F halts to something like "mem parity error" or the usual halt message. I managed to get to the DRAM config in bios but it showed all right.
Seems like the new bios changed voltages or frequencies to something wrong. I'm downloading the 3 previous roms and this evening may try them.

[b0ssman]

well a cmos reset is never a bad idea in that situation. try that first.

the new haswell cpu are very power efficient. depending on the power supply that you use you can expect to see idle values around 20-30 watt. (excluding drives of course)

[Sergio]

I've done a bios reset, I'll try the cmos reset.
I think sometimes people get so weary with consumption. They are putting 6+ 3.5" HD + controller cards... don't know if fighting for -5w makes sense.
Is that possible (advisable) to use spin-down with N4F?
Thanks!

[crowi]

Hi Sergio,

Is that possible (advisable) to use spin-down with N4F?

here the opinions vary. Some say that ZFS and spindown is not recommended, some use it anyway.
I set spindown to 20 minutes on my 5 RAIDZ1 drives and I run this setup since about 18 months without a problem.

Spindown saves me 4W per drive, so in total 20W less when idle.

Others just use WOL and start the server only when needed.


Cheers,
Crowi

[Sergio]

Yes, I've never had a problem with spindown. But I'm new at SW NAS.

Would be possible to get a celeron (I have some for free) for now and change later for a xeon? How does N4F takes it? I read elsewhere that it's HW agnostic, but seems strange.
I'm almost convinced to get that board. I recall that have 4Gb DDR3 laying around, and about that celeron (and up) cpu avail. If there are some other MB on the like, please make me arrive your suggestions.

[crowi]

Other suggestions:
- ASRock E3C226D2I
- ASRock E3C224D2I
both with Socket LGA1150, but I think the supermicro boards are superior, of course.

If you change later for a xeon, you just install the new cpu and restart your system, that's all you have to do. N4F is very easy on hardware change.

[b0ssman]

supermicro has the best build quality for off the shelf server motherboards. there are other in the x10 range but the X10SLL-F is the cheapest
http://www.supermicro.com.tw/products/m ... 3000/#1150

asrock has increased their commitment towards server motherboard and they are catching up fast. but they have small issues here and there in terms of bios and ipmi.
board (select socket 1150)
http://www.asrockrack.com/general/products.asp#Server

tyan
http://www.tyan.com/product_motherboard ... 00_v3.aspx

gigabyte
http://b2b.gigabyte.com/products/list.a ... =18&ck=101

one asus board (no ipmi)
http://www.asus.com/de/Commercial_Serve ... ns/P9D_WS/

[crowi]

Hi Bossman,

first: congrats to your 1.000th post

bossman_1000.png

second:

but they have small issues here and there in terms of bios and ipmi

I can fully confirm this, IPMI works, but the BIOS needs urgently some refinements, at least for the C2550D4I board

Cheers,
Crowi

[Sergio]

Congrats Bossman!

Mein freunde, do you know where to get those boards inside UE? At least for getting prices.
It happens that I was so concentrated on comparing the specifications and then realized that I can't get them to spain (without customs, duties, etc...)

I narrowed it to E3C226D2I (250€) and MBD-X10SLL-F (180€). For the first I like the form factor, the modern ports but not the price and only 2 dram sockets (€€€€€ mem.). The second I like the lower price and more memory, but don't like the fact it doesn't have any usb3.0 and the form factor.

The perfect one would be the E3C226D2I, cheaper with 4DIMM slots. Have you seen one?

For IPMI I don't know what would be the benefits for me.

[crowi]

You can get it here, I think they also ship to spain, just ask:
http://www.servershop-bayern.de/index.p ... &info=9594
and
http://www.servershop-bayern.de/index.p ... &info=9434
Otherwise you need to search a local distributor.

[b0ssman]

the supermicro board has usb3.0.
its the internal header that is usb 3.0

the only mini itx boards with 4 dimm slots i know about are the intel avoton boards.
http://www.asrockrack.com/general/produ ... l=C2750D4I
and
http://www.asrockrack.com/general/produ ... l=C2550D4I

the form factor is not that big of a deal.
as the only cases where you actually need it are the silverstone ds380 and the u-nas nsc800

[b0ssman]

You can get it here, I think they also ship to spain, just ask:
http://www.servershop-bayern.de/index.p ... &info=9594
and
http://www.servershop-bayern.de/index.p ... &info=9434
Otherwise you need to search a local distributor.

unfortunatly, as i learned, that shop does not ship to end users.

[Sergio]

the form factor is not that big of a deal.
as the only cases where you actually need it are the silverstone ds380 and the u-nas nsc800

Those are mITX

unfortunatly, as i learned, that shop does not ship to end users.

Prices where nice

[b0ssman]

i though you liked the mini itx form factor.

and the prices where excluding vat.

[Sergio]

i though you liked the mini itx form factor.

and the prices where excluding vat.

There was a misunderstanding. I was more biased to the supermicro, but uATX was throwing me back. I understood you telling me something like:
"uATX is not a problem/difference at all. Look at this boxes" So I inspected those boxes for putting inside a uATX but the 2nd one was definitely a no go.
Don't worry, there are boxes for everything. Far too many.

So yesterday tried to reset CMOS and it did the trick (thannnkksss). But there was something more. I had entered the bios and disabled everything I didn't need (serial/parallel controller, sound, etc...) but seems that N4F doesn't like it. I had to re enable everything and it booted normally.
After that I created a test raid0 with the two spare 1Tb Hd. Didn't read anything, it was trial-error fun. And then tested some functionality.

But it throws a recurring error on the console. Something like: [Todo: Add the exact err msg when chrome history wants to sync]

What about the AsRock C2550D4I? How this Avoton processors compare with Xeon? I Can't find anything useful.

[b0ssman]

no those are the only boxes i know for a nas that require mini itx boards.

for performance of the avoton see
http://www.servethehome.com/Server-deta ... on-tested/

[crowi]

What about the AsRock C2550D4I? How this Avoton processors compare with Xeon? I Can't find anything useful.

Hmm, let's say the the Xeon will eat the Avoton for breakfast.

The Avoton is coming from Intels Atom - line, but you can get it also as 8-core on the C2750D4I http://www.asrockrack.com/general/produ ... l=C2750D4I#
But for my storage needs it is really powerful enough and has very low power consumption.